Tumor Chains - Cylinder Smithsonian - End Of Days 8 (File, MP3)

Without even noticing it, I had fallen asleep and to for my surprise I suddenly woke up again in front of Marvin's home. You can still see the blood stains on the street. Don't worry about the neighbors. I will wake you up in the morning and we can do something then.

I knew that Baltimore was built by Irish immigrants a couple of centuries ago. Somehow it reminded me of the workers' cities in the Soviet Union - just big complex complexes with many residents, sharing the house with families, their children and probably even with their grandparents. In the 's when the African- Americans started to move into the city, the whites slowly started moving out.

Baltimore's crime rate is probably one of the highest in the United States of America. Just in the days prior to my arrival, at South Fulton Avenue, near where I stayed, four people had been killed, including the one next to Marvin's car. One of the victims was a young girl, whose throat was slit, obviously by her jealous boyfriend. Somehow I could imagine that those Irish immigrants who came to Baltimore centuries ago didn't quite plan that the city, which they built, would end up being one of the most dangerous cities on the East Coast.

When I arrived in Baltimore on that dark morning, I had not yet been exposed to the city. Marvin woke me up a little bit after 9 am. More and more I understood that I was in America, although it was at first very difficult to comprehend. I still missed my girlfriend Mona, my friends and my family. I still had to explore My America. After having breakfast, Marvin told me that he would take me to the downtown area of Baltimore and I was of course very excited about it.

I hadn't seen too much of America yet, mostly I had slept in the car on the way to Baltimore and I really didn't get to see New York either. The whole truth about South Fulton Avenue was exposed when Marvin opened the door and we went to his car. I was simply amazed. The streets were dirty, young African-American males, who to me looked like prison gangsters, were just hanging out on the streets and a couple of prostitutes were offering their services to the men who passed by them.

I could not see any other whites living on South Fulton Avenue; but maybe there were, and they were working, I can't say. I also noticed that there were cameras everywhere and a shining blue light was on all the time. I asked Marvin about their purpose, and he told that because there are so many shootings in that area that cameras are only way to really see what happens and who did what.

Also he told that most of these security cameras do have sound alarms in the case of a shooting. Another world had opened to me. Baltimore, indeed, or just this one particular part of Baltimore, had given me a real shock of the true face of the melting pot.

Just before I came to America, I had spent some time in Germany, in one of the most multi-cultural cities in Germany; Hamburg. Hamburg has almost 2 million inhabitants, and it is known as the "richest city" in Germany. By rich, I mean that Hamburg is a multi-ethnic and multi-cultural city, which supposedly makes the city better than, for example, a smaller German town mainly populated by Germans. However, Baltimore - my being outside only for 5 minutes - looked unbearable to me. Germany's most multi-cultural city, Hamburg, was nothing compared to Baltimore.

Helsinki and Stockholm could be considered to be heavenly paradises when compared to Baltimore. Maybe the difference between these European cities and Baltimore is how the cities are run. I would suspect that corruption is one of the biggest problems in Baltimore, which makes the city very vulnerable.

My cultural shock in Baltimore just didn't come slowly, it came immediately. After the sightseeing in the downtown area, I do admit I liked the city.

It was very different than the cities I had experienced earlier. In Europe there aren't too many skyscrapers and therefore seeing all those big buildings was exciting to me. The old part of the Baltimore looked somewhat innocent, but a newspaper article ruined that image as well. The newspaper informed me that the police suspected that a mass-murderer was at large. This serial killer had already done in 5 prostitutes in Baltimore, some of the victims being found in the old town of Baltimore.

Naturally my friends back in Finland and Europe were interested in knowing what America looks like To be honest I couldn't answer all those questions - I had only been in America one day, and I knew there was still a lot to see. I wrote an email to my girlfriend Mona who was very interested in America.

She was raised in the Soviet-Ukraine and still, even today, America is somewhat a taboo in Ukraine, only recently has the country started moving toward the West - which I might add, is not a good thing.

Ukraine is probably one of the whitest countries in Europe; becoming a Western- oriented country, or even a member of European Union, would force the Ukrainians to open their borders and let in everyone, including 'Third Worlders'. Of course, joining NATO is another story. Similar views about America still exist in Ukraine as like those existing during the Cold War era in Finland and even Mona shared a few of those views.

I wrote Mona some of my thoughts about Baltimore in the many emails which I wrote to her during my stay there. This is a new world, everything is different Basically, I can say that this is not being shown in the America tourist-guidebooks in Europe.

At the same time I can see straight into the future. Just being here makes me sure about one thing; multi-culturalism will not work. Obviously it didn't work here, it will dry out everything that was once beautiful, many old buildings that I see here look like they are from the war zones of Palestine, people wandering on the streets looking for someone to rob or even worse; to kill. This makes me more convinced than ever before that multi-culturalism must be stopped in Europe.

The melting pot does not make us different, it makes us all the same. For a few days I stayed alone at Marvin's apartment while he was working.

As a young man I needed to have my own adventure in the town and so I left Marvin's house. At first everything seemed to be alright, but soon I noticed I was the only white man on the street of that neighborhood, which was more or less dominated by black gangsters. A few blacks were staring at me, while I was walking on the street as I passed them.

I cannot know what they had in their mind when they saw me. I had never felt that feeling how it feels to be a part of a minority, to belong to a white minority. That feeling wasn't very appealing. I thought that some of those gangsters who were staring at me would have done ugly things to a white woman, probably nothing would have kept them from doing whatever they had in their minds, especially in the case of a white woman have passing them all alone by herself.

They stood there as the rulers of the street. Walking, it takes about 15 minutes to get to downtown Baltimore, and I kept walking in the direction of the downtown area.

Soon, about 5 minutes later, after leaving the house, I heard shooting which came from behind my back on South Fulton Avenue.

I suppose shooting is daily in that area, and any reason for using a gun is acceptable. Probably someone had been with someone else's girlfriend, causing the shooting, or hostile gang members had entered some certain street which is ruled by another gang and that caused the shooting.

There could have been several reasons for the gunfire. I don't know if anyone got killed, but it didn't take more than 2 or 3 minutes before a police helicopter was flying over the shooting area and hunting down the shooters. Just in the last decade, Finland has been targeted by African immigration. The first Somalis came to Finland from the Soviet Union in , and already at the end of , Finland had about 8, Somali refugees.

Finland has experienced similar mass immigration as Sweden and Norway experienced in the 's by allowing in Muslim immigrants from Somalia, Iraq and Turkey. In the 's, Finland was spared from the mass immigration wave because of our close tides to the Soviet Union.

Most of the Soviet states as well as its client states like Finland, were heavily controlled by the Kremlin and therefore those who were able to come to Finland as refugees or asylum seekers were accepted from the Soviet Union. This might be also one of the reasons why the immigrants did not feel that Finland would be a good place to be and therefore they chose to go to Sweden or Norway.

However, the African immigration to Finland increased near the end of thel's and early in the new century. As I wrote in my article, which led to my arrest in January , that the massive immigration from certain African countries did lead to devastatingly high increase in crime.

The crimes were more often violent and the victims were mainly women, therefore the rape rate in Finland also increased. Those immigrants who came to Finland in the 's with their families when they were still children have now adapted very hostile attitude toward Finns, and that is what I would call true racism. Especially immigrants of African descendant have not been able to assimilate into Finnish society, and therefore they have adapted the gang mentality and idolize African-American street gangs such as the Crips.

The gang mentality can be seen in the nature of their crimes, which include severe violence and gang rapes as well as drug trafficking. In , a gang of young Sudanese men kidnapped, assaulted and raped a young woman in Oulu - this is just a story among the others, but the victim was a white Finnish woman and her rapists were African asylum seekers that had formed a gang and being a member of the gang required taking part in a serious crime and committing severe physical violence.

More often the rapes committed by the foreigners are carried out by several men and the victim is and has been a white woman. In other words, the gangsters do share a racist and anti-white world view and they select their victim racially.

This is racism which no Finn has never seen or experienced before. During the year that I was gone from Finland and from Oulu, my home town, I've observed that this gang mentality has continued. Now there are a lot of young African males who proudly show off their membership - which they have earned - in their gang.

I have seen graffiti in gang areas which they simply mark as East Side or West Side. On the Internet, they have their websites and gangster rap music whose lyrics are vulgar and hateful.

I listened to a few of their songs in which they praised the gang rape of that young woman who was raped in Of course, the Finnish free speech law is bizarre. Indeed I had seen straight into the future in Baltimore and the future of the Nordic countries in Europe - if the future continues going in its current way - looks frightening.

Yet, I could luckily say that we are not there right now. Washington DC looked like an awesome city to me. I felt I as if I had entered the capital of the Roman Empire. The US capitol building stood out strongly on one side. It was an eye-catching building and quite impressive. I thought in my mind, if a Roman architect would have had suddenly appeared in Washington DC from his times a few thousands of years ago, would he have felt jealousy towards Washington DC? The office looked simple, but all the workers at the office were keeping busy, writing and editing new issues of the magazines and newspapers.

I thought that a similar politically- oriented office in Finland might be targeted by the ultra- aggressive political police SUPO. I was impressed by the office, and I had not seen anything similar before, although I was more impressed by what the small office produced for the needs of politically incorrect people.

Pete introduced me to the staff of the AFP, he shook hands with some of the editors, and I had a brief conversation with them. An older man asked me to sit down in a chair. He shook my hand and told me his name was Tucker. Pete told me that the AFP will interview me for their newspaper and that my story would be published in the newspaper in a couple of weeks.

Pete asked before the interview, if it had my approval, because he had had several conversations with a friend of mine about whether or not it would be safe for me and for my intended longer stay in the United States to give that interview.

I felt that the interview was the right thing to do. I wasn't concerned that the Federal authorities would give too much an attention to an interview - after all, the US laws were about freedom whether or not my personal political views were accepted or not, and as long as my political views would not cause any physical harm to anyone or put the country in any danger.

The United States stands for freedom - and, of course, every time when the United States goes to war, it is always for "defending freedom". Why should I have been concerned about giving an interview to a political newspaper in the country that fights for the freedom of all peoples?

I told Pete that the interview had my approval and that I am willing to give it. Pete then okayed me and soon an older man - whom I didn't recognize at first as Willis Carto- with a nice smile in his face, approached me and said; "So, you're the Finn? It will go into next week's issue. Pete told me that it is fine for you to give that interview, which I am glad to hear.

He started to ask questions about my case and about my possible prison sentence in Finland. I told him my story and those who were near me did listen to me intently. One of them expressed his amazement at the same time; "Are there blacks in Finland? In that tiny country in Scandinavia? Recently I talked with a friend of mine, who is a British-born nationalist and resides in Finland, about the multi-culturalization in the United Kingdom having gone too far, and nobody claims anymore that multiculturalism really works.

Finland might be maybe 15 years behind England's multicultural experiment and all the harm which this mass-immigration and multiculturalism caused in England is just being ignored in Finland. I could say that the ideology of multiculturalism could be compared to suicidal behavior. There are millions or maybe hundreds of millions of smokers on our planet, millions of them - after decades of smoking - have died of lung cancer or other related health problems.

Most of those who smoke are aware of this danger, but the danger of death - of one's own death - is not an immediate danger, it will become serious in several years. Just like a smoker understands the possible fate of death, also a devoted multi-culturalist understands and sees the problems of multi-culturalism, but the total death of a nation is not a question of today or not even the question of tomorrow, but it will be a question of several years or decades.

And yet, when the problems can be seen in England, Germany, Sweden and Norway where the rape rates of the women are even six times higher than in New York City - Finland has decided to have a taste of this multiculturalism, even if this means, in the long run, the destruction of the Finnish nation and culture. I was welcomed come back to visit at the AFP offices any time on whatever issues I might have or if I needed help.

I had a good feeling about the meeting and the interview. Pete took me to Union Station, where I took a train to the city, which inspired in me some very controversial thoughts.

Will this be Finland's future? The city that was built by the Irish immigrants didn't exist anymore; it now belonged to the history pages. In Baltimore, I had faced the dark side of the multi-culturalism. It was raining when the train arrived. I watched through the window as the police cars chased down criminals. It just indicated that night had overtaken the city.

After a week of staying in Baltimore, it was time for me to get to Pittsburgh in Pennsylvania. I didn't know much about Pittsburgh, but later I got to know the city very well. And, of course, I can say that it was better for me to see Baltimore first and to have this shock first - than to go to quite peaceful and white Pittsburgh and basically not have the shock that I had experienced in Baltimore. John de Nugent called me on my birthday and congratulated me - "Tomorrow we will see," he said on the phone "at the picnic in Harrisburg.

Margaret has prepared your room, and we are all waiting for you here. Please, give my best greetings to your friend Marvin - and very happy birthday to you; you have become a man now! While I packed my belongings, I had a little smile when I took the big confederate flag with me which Marvin had bought for me when we visited Harper's Ferry in West Virginia.

I just looked at the flag and I wondered what the boys in Finland would think now if they could see me already after a week with the confederate flag. I hadn't known then, but they had already given me a pen-name; ""American Henrik".

It took only an hour and half to get to Harrisburg from Baltimore. In my mind, I said goodbye to Baltimore, the city that represented to me the past, present and future - the future that remained uncertain for the beautiful cities in Europe and Scandinavia if the deadly ideology of multiculturalism would some day fully take over and crush everything beautiful that we whites have created for our nations. Baltimore for me was a living fact of the dying European- American society and dying White civilization.

We stopped at the rest area to have a soda drink. I saw a group of Amish people at the rest area. They were younger members of Amish society, if I shall refer to it as a society.

They wore old clothes, refused to use cars or anything that was a part of the modern American society. They seemed to be happy among their own kind and yet they had been able to live very modestly throughout the centuries.

Theirs is a society inside the society; just one big family - everyone helping each other and working honestly for the society which they built. Obviously, their system did work and although it might be difficult to understand their way of living, those people that I saw at the rest area were seemed happy.

Finally we were at the bus station in Harrisburg. As usual, the day was hot and sticky. The bus from Pittsburgh arrived a little bit after 1pm.

I was eager to see John again after over a year. I met him the first time in Germany, while staying at the home of Roy Armstrong - and later we both attended Manfred Roeder's Springfest, with John as the main speaker.

After our meeting in Germany, we maintained our contact and later, when I found out that I was to be prosecuted by State Prosecutor Mika Illman - John gave a lot of attention to my case, making several detailed posts on the Internet and giving an interview with me on his radio show.

All that and even more work which he later did while I was in federal prison caused the State prosecutor in Finland to back off and drop all the bogus charges against me.

The sun was shining and the weather was hot - especially for me. John had his camera with him, and he wanted to memorialize the meeting with a few pictures. After having taken some pictures, we looked for a nice American bar to have a drink. I actually think it was an old saloon, not too far away from the bus station of Harrisburg. Next page. New Songs See more new songs Previous page. New Indie Albums See more new and recent albums Previous page.

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Press enter to select. People Also Watched. Try Again. Sign Out. Back to Home. Go Back. View Devices. And what are the problems and so on, so on, so on? So, along the way I had to read all of that, of course, and try to understand as much as possible. Weyl was a professor at Penn State. And that thick book is—was until 10 years ago—was the bible for glass colors for me. Woldemar Weyl. Yeah, that was a—that book is still used today, but oh boy is it tough to read. I mean, really tough to read.

Do you know, I had experience in math with tough-to-read books. I remember my friends that were taking English classes would carry around books that were three inches thick, and people who were studying history were carrying around books that were two and three-quarters inch thick, and people who were studying sociology had books that were three inches thick.

And my math book was one-half an inch, and yet we studied just as hard and as many days and hours and years with that little tiny book because it was so precisely written. And in the math formulas you could say volumes in one line. But it took sometimes weeks for me to get it for it to—so I had to do the same thing with the Weyl book. No, then I gave up glass. I had to in order to get that degree.

And I was—already had spent a whole year on it and I'd promised the school that I was going to, you know, be a good boy and get my degree in painting and so on, and they'd given me the assistantship, and et cetera. There was too much on the line, so I had to like literally forget the glass—just don't deal with it. Except I did take that one course on glaze calculations from McKinnell so that I could learn how to color glasses, which glazes are really glasses, no difference.

And the colorants or the coloring agents are the same. It's just that with a glaze the glass is only, you know, microscopically thin glass. But I did want to. And then I finally made up my mind and made the decision after the second summer in Iowa City that I would push real hard to go to Madison and get that assistantship and get the MFA. Build the furnace—. The furnace, we just pushed it to the side.

It was still there so we didn't have as long a start up. And, of course, Eisch wasn't there that summer, '65, but we got to see the studio at the school and go out to Harvey's studio on the farm in Verona.

I can't remember how many furnaces there were but at least one, maybe two furnaces in each place. And I think we even blew a little bit of glass and then I remember—this is a weird story. I don't know why I remember it. We decided to get beer, bring beer to the farm, because I think Bess was going to make lunch for us, or something and we wanted—. We wanted to bring something, so we stopped and got beer and—in throwaway bottles because we didn't know any better in those days. And we brought in these cardboard boxes full of 24 bottles of beer, opened them up and started to drink the beer.

And I noticed—we all noticed immediately, the bottles were bright ruby red. I'd never seen a red beer bottle before or since. Now, I brought this story up with some other people that were in that and they swear that I was full of baloney, that there never were any red beer bottles.

Now, we threw them away because we didn't know they were valuable but now on-line you can find references to those bottles. It was an experimental—. By then I kind of knew some of the differences between industrial machine blown glass cooling curves and hand blown glass. You can do it but you've got to be real fast because they're designed to set up instantly when they—as soon as they hit that mold they just get hard as a rock on purpose.

And for hand working glass you don't ever want that. I seem to remember that there was a question about that, that he offered it and then maybe it wasn't going to be there and then—and I think I ended up having to do a little pushing and shoving in order to get it. But, at any rate, I got it. That's the important thing. And it was a very strange assistantship. I assumed I'd be the assistant and I would be, you know, kind of managing the hot shop at the school.

No, this was his personal assistant at his farm, in his studio. And they did that for other people, he wasn't the only one. I mean, it was just that was done, that was one of the things —.

There was not—there was not an assistant in the hot shop at school and, in fact, we were all told that we were all the assistant, and we all had to maintain the shop and make sure it worked. We are now—okay, Fritz, let's start talking about your time at the University of Wisconsin.

You finished up in Iowa in '65 and you finished up your painting—excuse me, not in '65, in—. I could get a degree in painting. And they did not have a glass professor and were not going to be hiring one. So the person who had started the glass activities was Harvey Littleton and his program at the University of Wisconsin was the oldest in the country, so it made sense to go there if possible. And after meeting Harvey when he and Erwin came to the Iowa City studio for a visit that first summer, and then meeting him again the second summer of '65, either I asked him or he asked me, or maybe McGlauchlin set it up to—the idea of me being a graduate student of Harvey's and get an assistantship—which I needed because I needed that in order to stay in school.

And I was basically given to understand that I would get that assistantship at Madison if I wanted it and applied for it and so on, and so, in fact, that's what happened. And I was Harvey's personal assistant out at the farm in his studio, not at the university glass house. We were all told, all of us that were in that program, that it was important that we run that glass shop ourselves and that Harvey did not want to oversee how things were taken care of, and he wanted to make sure that all of us did it.

And I think that was probably a good idea to have each of us take a certain amount of personal pride in the way things were handled and how it was operated and we all had to—it was expected that all of us would eventually set up glass studios around the country. And, in fact, most of the graduates from the program while I was there did in fact go out into the world of teaching and set up glass shops, or some of them set up glass and ceramics.

And some of them actually went back to ceramics and abandoned the glass after a while, but they did glass for a while. Let's see, we can talk about some of those people that were there. Those folks had already graduated by the time I got there. Doug Johnson was another one of those. And they'd—I think all of those people except Monona had set up shops in schools and were starting to teach by when I got there. And there probably were a couple of others that I can't—. There were basically 12 of us in the shop.

Some people would say it might be the dirty dozen, other people would say that we were the disciples who would go out and spread the gospel of glass. And all but a couple of those folks did, in fact, go into the teaching field. Very few people set up their own private studios.

Audrey Handler was one the people that—one of the earliest people to set up a hot shop private studio outside of the academic world. And she still operates the same studio, actually. It's called the Cheese Factory up in Verona, Wisconsin—great studio.

And his role—I'm sure if anybody was assigning him a project—was to promote this glass thing and to help set up and get schools interested in glass, and place his students in teaching positions as they graduated and moved out. I can remember writing to about 20 schools telling them that they should hire me to run their glass shop that they didn't have yet, but that they should start because otherwise they couldn't keep up with schools that were as forward thinking as Madison, Wisconsin.

There were a couple of people in clay, but only one in glass. Paoli is a little town nearby Verona and Harvey, when he was still in the pottery teaching business, had set up a business to sell water to the public school system. By that, I mean he would buy dry clay in bags and run it through a pug mill or some kind of mixing device, and put water with the clay and sell it as wet clay, ready to use, to the high schools, who didn't want to—each of them didn't want to buy a big pug mill, a very expensive piece of machinery.

So we always made fun of him for selling water. DREISBACH: And so the company already existed and it was easy for—well, not easy, but it was possible for the company to import the tools, pay the duties and so on, and write the letters in German that needed to be written, and write the checks, and get the money exchanged into Marks and so on.

And it would have been a lot trickier if we each had to do that on our own. And other cities in West Virginia and southern Ohio had hand factories. We just didn't have contacts yet. But since he knew about the German tools—probably through Eisch, I'm guessing that. And Putsch is still manufacturing glassmaking tools and comes to the Glass Art Society [GAS] conferences on occasion and has a booth, and I'm a big supporter of their tools.

As we all know, you have to keep them running all the time, 24 hours a day. And so having a tall ceiling was important to get the fumes and stuff away from all of us and out of the building. And the furnaces were the furnace design of Dominick Labino, a top-fired burner and a front opening door, except in the earliest days when it was just a pile of bricks in the front, we didn't even have doors yet.

And at some point we built a pot furnace while I was there, I think, and there was even an attempt to build a glory hole, but I don't think I ever used it. I don't think it ever actually functioned while I was still there, but a few years later people talked about the glory hole at Madison. And then, I think, we had three annealing ovens, which were essentially electric kilns, ceramic style kilns, top loaders, morning, afternoon and evening ovens.

Pretty basic. And we had one or two grinding wheels that were horribly dished out, couldn't really do much in the way of cold working at all. Though Harvey was getting interested in it, none of us were—well, let me say I wasn't very interested in it at the time. It's interesting how things change. And what was that story about ruby glass? I've often told people that copper ruby got me my most significant jobs over the years, the first one being that assistantship at Madison, because I started experimenting with color.

Even before I could blow very much in the way of glass, I was intrigued with color, and I think because I was a painter that was kind of a natural direction for me to pursue. The idea of making something like a stained glass window, where I was painting with light—colored light instead of paint was very intriguing.

So I wanted to understand how to do all of that. And so I started experimenting with one of the trickier colors, which is the copper reds, and I made three pieces. I remember taking them out of the annealing oven and finally getting the red to work after a number of weeks of experimenting, making really awful, awful brown, ugly colors, green, greenish brownish yuck colors and throwing them all away.

And then finally got the red, and I put those three pieces in the big picture window that was right beside the front entrance door to the glass studio. We called it the lab. Harvey came in for that class and walked right past the window and didn't look out through the window, but went down to the other end of the room—. And then as he turned to leave and headed back towards the door he saw the big window and he saw those three ruby red—bright ruby red pieces and said, "Who did that?

That was the first step of many. And if this recorder is still working when we get to a time period a little later in my career, we'll find out about that copper ruby and how it influenced my jobs in Seattle, Washington. Do you see much difference between university trained glass artists and those who learned through apprenticing or coming up through industry?

I'm very prejudiced to the system that I grew up in, as I think many people would be. And so I feel strongly that the university system is a good system. Although of course everything has drawbacks and so on, I do see the advantages. And part of the advantages of growing up in the university system was that I was exposed not just to glass blowing techniques, which were important but not the end product, certainly—I was exposed to many art forms, many artists working in many art forms.

I was exposed to a lot of art history. I was exposed to the way an artist develops a series or a progression of work and how to set up exhibitions and so on. And I think that that kind of exposure, understanding the history, contemporary art history as well as ancient art history, was an important step for me, and I feel that it helped me get to the place that I am.

So I don't think it's a bad idea to be an apprentice by any means. And there are good examples of people who have not gone through the university system and who are very "successful," and I say successful with quotation marks around it. They're very successful in the marketplace, and yet they did not go through a formal university art training program.

So we know that it's possible to do it that way, it just seems like it should be easier to do it through the university system. Although the university system is probably scary to some people, maybe so scary that they don't do it.

And I haven't—I don't know that I can add anything more than to remind you that I said my prejudice, which is for the university system. DREISBACH: Well, maybe in the few times—there were times when I had a project or I had a question and I could go to Nick and I was able to go to Nick, and he would help me see my way through that and walk me through it and help me through it, and in that sense he mentored me.

But no, he didn't take apprentices. And he made that very clear, that he was neither a teacher nor a master who worked with apprentices. He grew up in industry. In the glass industry things tended to be very secretive and he was not as open as college professors would be.

And I think he probably wasn't as open as an apprentice master person would or should be. So, no, I don't think so. It wasn't the classic—let's say it was a variation on theme. I didn't start working with other cullets until—well, of course when I went on the road I would blow whatever people had in their furnace.

And that was part of the challenge of doing the workshops and traveling around, was to utilize whatever people did and utilize their glass and sort of push it and show them what could be done or what might be done with that material. FRANTZ: Did Littleton ever mention to you the glassmakers in places like Arkansas who had built their own small furnaces at home for making paperweights? We were art students. We were artists and our role models were other artists who were working for the most part in other materials, I would say exclusively.

And then he became a very important model for me and others, many others, and then as we got to know other European artists they also influenced us in a very positive way. But no, those people were more—in our opinion those people in Arkansas and West Virginia and so on that had their own furnace in the backyard that was just really a shrunken version of the big factory furnaces were more like hobbyists than they were artists. They weren't creating new designs so much as they were reproducing the same stuff they used to make when they were in the factory.

That was our attitude. Right or wrong, I feel that was our attitude. And I personally didn't run into any that were really exciting people to see their work or to watch them work. It was—there weren't very many movies about glass. There wasn't much in the way of material, weren't so many books, weren't so many exhibitions of glass in the '60s, so we glommed on to that one. And that movie became a role model for everyone that ever tried to make a movie about glass from that point on. I don't know when the date, that must date from around the middle '50s, I would guess [].

Yeah, as a matter of fact the Marinot, he did a move with the back end of the jacks, the spring end of the jacks, into the hot glass that he had just gathered. And I started using that same move and then—I don't know whether Tom McGlauchlin saw what I was doing or whether he saw the movie or whether he just came to it independently; he then took it to yet another dimension.

DREISBACH: The move is to drag the glass up near the shoulder and thin it out, thin out the wall in the middle of the wall in a stripe, in a vertical stripe, and then do it again and then do it again all the way around.

You could do it as many times as you had room to pull up. And so you created a thick and thin optical effect that was very interesting to me, allowed the light to bounce around between the thick glass and the thin glass.

It was a nice variation. And I liked that. I liked it when I saw Marinot do it, and I loved doing it, it was fun to do. And then I liked the end result, looking at it. And he was standing in the center of this huge room with a very tall ceiling, and he had a pretty good-sized gather on the blowpipe, and he was in the center of the room, nowhere near the furnace, nowhere near the bench, nowhere near the marver, but in the center of the room where there was nothing obstructing him, and he was spinning around in a very tight circle, and he had the blowpipe extended horizontally away from his mouth—I assumed he was blowing a little bit into the pipe, but not very much, just enough—and as he turned his body and spun that blowpipe, the bubble, instead of drooping down, extended out horizontally.

It was like he had invented—he had developed some way of manipulating glass that was defying gravity. It was absolutely incredible. And my memory of Dale will always have that at the top of the list of the many, many, many developments that he came up with over the years, and is still coming up with, that he's so famous for. And there was—I also had a taste of his ability to promote his work and others' and his interest in many different art forms, not just glass.

I tended to look at other glass for inspiration; he would often look at other materials and gather inspiration from those. And he says in one of his books—he kindly acknowledges the assistance that I gave him in those early days, and that was at a time when most of us felt that it was important to blow glass all by ourselves without using any outside help of any kind: no one to open the door, no one to put a punty on, no one to bring a handle.

We had to do it ourselves. It was important that we did it ourselves; it helped define what we were doing in a way. And Dale didn't buy that for a minute, not even for a moment. And so he was thankful that I was there to help him a little bit at some point. That was in Madison. I feel that it was our attempt to differentiate who we are, who we were at that time—this is the middle '60s—differentiate what we were doing and who we were from factory workers that might be way, way better glass blowers than we were but who maybe didn't design the pieces, who mostly worked from designs that were handed to them by an artist or a designer, who often wore a coat and tie and worked with a pencil on paper.

And that's how they thought. And then the craftsman was expected to produce something that represented that drawing out of molten glass. But the craftsman was not expected to think up or invent or design the piece, except in rare occasions.

So when the Toledo Museum decided—I mean, they were very forward thinking in helping start this glass thing in when Otto Wittmann invited Harvey—well, it was probably late '61 when he invited Harvey to set up a workshop there at the museum.

That was a pretty gutsy thing to do. But then, four years later, after only four years of people trying to make glass this way in America, the Toledo Museum held a national competitive exhibition of glass called "Toledo Glass National One. So they did "Toledo Glass National One" in the fall of So it was literally four years and a few months after those two '62 workshops—four years.

And there were, I don't know, 60 people that submitted work. Well, they had a restriction in that. You had to sign a piece of paper that said, I made this piece all by myself; no one opened my door.

And in fact—then they did it again in '68, and there was a piece of glass that was rejected by the jury out of the exhibition because the jurors could not figure out how any one human being could make a piece of glass with a blown foot. Now, I know who made it. His name is Bob Naess. And I know how clever he is. Naess made that piece all by himself. He blew at night and there was no one to help him. And so all of us blew by ourselves and we all did all of those moves on our own.

And Naess was just one of those people who got punished for being smart—yet another example. And I have a slide of it that I like to show sometimes when I'm showing slides of those early years. I throw that one up on the screen and say, "Can anybody here in the audience figure out how this piece was made all by himself, without a helper? You use a preheat box or a color box, and you put the cup—you make a cup and put it in upside down and that becomes the foot.

That's the blown foot.

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